Visual Studio 2005 beta 2 delivered for free

Discussion in 'Feedback Requests' started by Diragor, Apr 18, 2005.

  1. Diragor

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  2. Rebrehc's Industries

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    Thank you. I just ordered it.
     
  3. Jack Norton

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    I am still using the old VC 6 I bought some years ago. Should I upgrade? any good reason to do it?

    thanks for your opinions :)
     
  4. Hamumu

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    I use VC6 too. But this is free, might as well get a look at it! I suppose shipping wouldn't be free for you though, Jack, it says US and Canada shipping is free. I have a feeling it's just more bloat as usual. That seems to be the way things go.

    PS - thanks for pointing it out! Another fine benefit of Indiegamer membership, along with the stunning tote bag.
     
  5. Bluecat

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    I upgraded from VC6 last year to 2003.NET for a couple of reasons.

    VC6 doesn't conform to the later C++ standards, and I'm not sure but I don't think it conformed fully to the standard when it was released.

    This caused a few problems with libraries I use. Notably Boost which was no longer supporting VC6 in some of its libraries, which meant that I couldn't use some of the later versions of Boost.

    VC6 also has a horribly broken STL (or at least parts of it are.) I believe these problems are fixed in VC7 and later.

    So, my reasons were pretty much compatibility reasons. There is still no reason to upgrade if those aren't issues with you. Although, and this is just a guess, VC7 and later may have more efficient compilers, and may produce more efficient code since the technology is eight years more mature. At least I'd hope that would be the case.
     
  6. Diragor

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    I also noticed that there are new betas of the Express Editions for free download. There are a couple of interesting notes in the FAQ that I don't think were there before. First, it says that commercial applications are allowed: "Create fun and interesting applications for their personal enjoyment or to share with their friends, or even commercially distribute your programs." Second, they now mention a price: "Our plan is to offer the Express products for $49 per product when they are released." Sounds like a pretty damned good deal to me. They're even including the optimizing compiler, unlike previous Standard versions: "Yes, Visual C++ 2005 Express Edition includes the same core optimizing compiler that will be included with all other Visual Studio 2005 editions. It should be noted that some new expanded optimization features, including Profile Guided Optimizations, will be available only in the Professional and above editions of Visual Studio 2005."
     
  7. Pyabo

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    Hmmmm... I never get reply after clicking on "Continue to checkout." I wonder if this is because I'm using Opera? :rolleyes:
     
  8. Mark Currie

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    Like Bluecat mentioned, 2003 conforms to the C++ standard better meaning you can do more advanced stuff with templates, etc.

    I am using VC 2003 (not the beta 2005 version), and the upgrade was not painless.

    Here are some issues if you upgrade from 6 to 2003, most of these probably apply to the most current beta build of VC:

    1) Hotkeys have been remapped. They have a mode to emulate the VC6 style hotkeys, but it certainly is not perfect. I still prefer VC6 hotkeys.

    2) If you have IDE macros, then be prepared to rewrite them. I had a bunch and none of them work in version 2003.

    3) Checking for dependences is more correct but also much slower. If you have a solution with lots of projects be prepared to wait a while when building. No matter how fast your machine is, it will take a while. Note: there is a tool you can use to emulate VC6's fast build style. See this link:
    http://www.workspacewhiz.com/OtherAddins.html#FastSolutionBuild
     
  9. Pyabo

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    Funny, they charged me for shipping. I guess they're getting more requests than they expected.

    Another reason to upgrade from VC6 to .Net Studio is that Intellisense actually works and has more features.
     
  10. ManuelFLara

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    I've been using VS 2005 Express beta (both VC++ and VC#) and I'm just loving every minute I spend with it. I liked VC6, but this is just superior. The most important reasons to me were C++ standard compatibility and the STL (VC6's horrible), but I prefer the new IDE, too.

    Just one thins annoys me: there's no Visual Assist (yet) for VS 2005 :(

    $50 per VS 2005 Express? I'm all for it!
     
  11. Larry Hastings

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    I'm still on VC6 too. I gather this is commonplace; I've seen postings to the DirectX developer's mailing list saying, more or less, "look guys VC6 is six years old, we're going to stop supporting it really really soon".

    Why am I still on VC6? I hate the VS.NET GUI. VC6's GUI has warts, but I'm used to them; meanwhile, the re-tooled GUI for VS.NET dropped all the context-specific workability in favor of a general-purpose windowing interface which is nails on a freakin' chalkboard. I suppose it's fine for mouse users, but I use keyboard shortcuts all day long and in this area VS.NET drops the ball.

    Example: when you run a build in VC6, it opens the "Output" window and shows you the output in the Build tab. If you don't want to look at it anymore, press Esc and poof! it goes away. When you run a build in VS.NET, it opens the Output window, and you can only close it with the mouse. But! when the build is over, it closes it for you, and imports all the build warnings and errors into the "todo" list! (And the importer truncates long lines!) Of course, you can only close the "todo" list with the mouse too. You can have these windows set to "auto-hide" themselves, but that's just barely not worse.

    Another example: in VC6, Build and Find In Files output windows are tabs on the same Output window, and F4 works for "go to next" in whatever one is the current tab. In VS.NET, the go-to-next-build-error button only works for "tasks" in the "Todo" list and is irrelevant to the completely unrelated Find In Files output window.

    Turning on the VC6 keybindings in VS.NET did not remedy either of these.

    I've heard that they've retooled the GUI in VS.NET 2005. I will approach it warily but with an open mind. Truthfully I may soon be forced to give up my beloved VC6; time is marching on, and I'll soon be using libraries that I suspect won't support that creaky old compiler.

    On the other hand, maybe one could jury-rig it so VC6 could build VS.NET projects...! There's a thought!
     
  12. James C. Smith

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    I still love old familiar and reliable VC6. But I know I should switch to a new version because the optimizer is better. I am just to darn lazy and set in my ways. I’ll make the switch ‘tomorrow’. And tomorrow I'll say the same thing. ;)
     
  13. Jim Buck

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    The thing that I liked most about .NET is that the project/compiler settings dialog box is MUCH nicer, but better yet - it's modeless! It makes it 100x easier to sit there and tweak settings.

    I remember when I first started using .NET, the interface was absolutely daunting to me.. but I like it a lot now.
     
  14. Mark Currie

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    Well put Larry! I can’t believe they messed up the find-in-files dialog and the F4 key!

    Also, I forgot to mention the VS 2003 GUI is slower than the VC6 GUI. A friend of mine at Microsoft told me they rewrote the GUI in C#. When I open the dialog for project properties (for the first time in a while), I have to wait like three seconds for the dialog to open, while my HD goes nuts. I have a 2.8 GHz HT machine with a 10k RPM drive.

    I know the VC++ 2003 has new optimizations, but honestly I’m not that impressed. My game didn’t run noticeably faster when I made the switch. The “Whole Program Optimizationâ€￾ is basically unusable for me. If you have a big project, this can cause linking to take forever. For my project, when turned on, linking goes from 1 minute to 15 minutes.
     
  15. Hiro_Antagonist

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    I don't believe this is true. My roommate was on the VS.NET 2k5 IDE team until about a year ago, and he and his team were doing everything in C++, except for Wizards and other peripheral features. I doubt they trashed years of C++ effort and rewrote the entire VS.NET front end in 1 year.

    Besides, C# isn't that much slower than C++. (I've heard 5%, and that's about right from my experience -- basically unnoticable.) It's mostly a myth that C# is way slower. The few extreme cases I've seen of speed difference between the two languages were test cases specifically constructed to prey on C#'s weaknesses, which are quite rare in real-world scenarios.

    Anyway, if the IDE is acting slower, I'm sure it's because they've added extra functionality that is causing more crunching under the hood. My roommate was working on some of these features and had mentioned many more to me. Of course, whether or not these features are worth the extra crunching is still open for debate...

    -Hiro_Antagonist
     
    #15 Hiro_Antagonist, Apr 19, 2005
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2005
  16. wazoo

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    how many times do they need my address?

    I mean really, I already have a freaking .NET Passport, so why am I entering all of my contact information for the umpteenth time with Microsoft!

    Several million points for releasing (albeit beta) software for free, but minus a few hundred for not reusing existing code! :)

    Okay I gripe...I still ordered. So far the new studio is much less of a memory hog than .NET 2003..;)
     
  17. Dan MacDonald

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    One thing that's pretty cool is 2005 is supposed to ship with SourceDepot integration which is microsofts flavor of CVS/SVN. I love my tortiseSVN but having something cleanly integrated into the development environment is a good thing.
     
  18. wazoo

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    Now THAT sounds interesting...so do you mean that it'll act as a client to hook into a CVS/SVN server? Or does it ship with a SourceDepot server product that this IDE plugs into as a client?

    I don't see it in my quick tour of the beta 2 IDE, but I'm guessing this is a "subscribers-only" feature..
     
  19. Larry Hastings

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    Do you know about AnhkSVN?
    I'm a little more than "just curious"; I'm considering ditching my free-trial Perforce server and switching to SVN for my next game. But I, too, like my tools integrated.

    Then again, I'm still using MSVS 6, and AnkhSVN only says MSVS.NET. Hrmph.
     
  20. tolik

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    Ok, moving onto MS VS.Net 2005 dev conference here, in Riga.
    Let's see what they could show :)
     

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