I Want To Invest In a Game Project, but I need Information

Discussion in 'Indie Basics' started by Tesla, Feb 23, 2007.

  1. JoKa

    Indie Author

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    You are missing a major factor. Besides the challenge to produce a game with your limited budget, you need much more money for the hardware(+service), customer support and advertising. You need to attract potential customers as soon as possible, this means you need the logistic part once the first playable version of the game is online. It's necessary to optimize the game and build up a community, also a good test for the server side. But it also causes additional costs during development.

    Some interesting questions for your business plan:
    How many visitors do you need to find at least 100 players who are willing to pay?
    How long will the average customer pay for the game?
    How many visitors are only interested in the free service, causing traffic without paying anything?
    It's not realistic to expect 1/3 of the daily players to pay. Many download games have a conversion rate between 0,5 and 1,5%. Even if online games convert much better there's still a huge step to reach 30% :)
     
  2. Nexic

    Indie Author

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    Check http://www.jaggedbladesoft.com/xenoassault2

    Pile O Crud compared to Ikaruga. It probably cost me $500 in art, music and sound effects. Not much eh? But what about my own time?

    If I had hired myself to make Xeno Assault II it would have been at least $20,000. Sure go to India and find a cheaper version of me and you could do it for $7,500, but you still have my game and not Ikaruga. FYI Ikaruga probably cost well over $1,000,000 to make, let alone marketing.

    I didn't mind working 4 months full time for peanuts because it's my own game and I'm passionate about it. If it was your game then you would have to pay me a decent wage. If you can't do it yourself then it's going to cost you a lot.

    Get it on to the GameCube? Good luck with that one... Honestly you need to spend much more time learning about how the games industry works.

    For a casual shooter you can use stock art but for more complex games like Gunz or whatever it's just totally impossible. You mentioned Rendorosity. Any idea how many polys are on a standard Poser model? Any idea what kind of PC you need to render them in real time? Certainly not an ancient 500mhz. You can prerender them and make a 2D game, but honestly unless you have an artist doing the renders and animations they are going to look like junk. And even so, your game will now be full of many conflicting styles that will simply look ugly.

    Kudos uses Poser models quite well but they were all static and since it was a hardcore managment game art was never all that important in the first place. Make a shoot em up with poser models and it will look pretty lame.

    So glad you decided against making something like Gunz, that would cost you at least $100,000, even using slave labour (I really wouldn't be suprised if it cost $1,000,000). That doesn't count post-launch costs.

    Some advertising is free on the internet, but to get 7000 players you will need to spend money or wait several years to build up a player base.
     
    #42 Nexic, Feb 24, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2007
  3. lamsbro

    Original Member

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    For the sake of beating a dead horse: most indie games exist today because their creators are willing to work for far less than what they could make as a programmer employed by someone else. They are willing to do this largely because they get to decide how the game is made, and they genuinely enjoy that.

    Do not take this as evidence that you can hire people to do what you want for next to nothing. And if you think outsourcing will solve your problems you're not alone: there are hundreds of tech companies who have invested many years, and millions of dollars in building the relationships and talent needed just to access these people. Unless you have a lot of connections and experience in India, China, Vietnam, Eastern Europe, etc. you're not going to save yourself any money trying to find talent there. I've spoken with people who've tried to do it; it sounds a lot easier than it really is.

    If you really want to make your own indie game let me suggest this: take that 10,000 and invest it in teaching yourself how to make games. It's the cheapest labor you'll ever find, and it will give you a better idea of what you're getting yourself into.
     
  4. Andy

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    So why not just shut up?..

    Pardon guys! I couldn't finish the reading of the whole thread but just have to say something to this guys.

    Yeah, I know how you hate me for this. :D
     
  5. HairyTroll

    Original Member

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    Or mutual funds.
     
  6. NathanR

    NathanR New Member

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    Just to point out too, my monthly advertising budget is ten thousand dollars and that gets me one banner on a site with any traffic.

    Please dont foolishly think that advertising and marketing is the cheapest part of game development. You can go the "free" route and have your friends talk about you on MySpace (lawl z0mg gamse r neet!), post a video on youtube, etc... but if you want those to drive sales your game had better be really cool and unique, or nobody will care.

    To give you a little more perspective, Skill City has 2 programmers, two artists, and myself. One programmer is working for free (I paid him in stock), the other artist is a part timer, I am not paying myself. My monthly salary expense is about $15,000. Currently it takes us about three weeks to create an internet head-to-head puzzle game from the ground up. Music costs me about $600 (outsourced for cheap because I know the band for many years) and sound effects which I do myself during my exciting 15 hour work day costs about $200 for the royalty library I access before I spend hours with Audition and Pro Logic reworking them, making new sounds, etc.

    Art is the longest component to produce. A single background takes about a week. For a side scrolly, I would double that unless your backgrounds are going to be plain blue with the occasional green hill (mario brothers reference).

    Anyway the short story is, just make your game. Make it really cool, and not 100% derivative and people will come to you.

    If you want to read the stories of my experience basically doing what you are currently considering, check my blog. Linked in my sig.

    Hope that was helpful.
     
  7. CJPinder

    CJPinder New Member

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    Ford was an engineer and an inventor and of course he had the technical knowledge to make cars. He designed and built his own self-propelled four wheel vehicle when he was 33 before he went onto to form the Detroit Automobile Company.

    How do you know that? How many successful games have you produced so far? Do you actually know what is involved in producing a successful game?

    Sorry to sound harsh but ideas are not actually worth anything and do not make companies successful. Success only comes when you can take an idea, turn it into a product and sell that product at a profit. Turning an idea into a successful product is many hundreds of times harder than having the idea.

    Your best bet is to head over to:
    http://www.sloperama.com/advice.html

    It should answer a lot of your questions.

    Christian.
     
  8. MrQ

    MrQ New Member

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    $10,000 might buy you a few player models, thats about it
     
  9. mrkwang

    mrkwang New Member

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    Sorry, but why are you ATTACKing me, seriously? Could you please let me know why?

    That guy posted question, I answered, he didn't listen, so I wrote longer answer, he never listen again, so I replied shorter answer again, and finally he pointed me that I'd better offer advice instead of saying something. I already answered kinda detail things, just he didn't listen nor read or reply. I didn't think it's fair, so I answered again.

    Well. Why did I reply him? At first, I thought he just didn't have information about Korean Online Game making budget, so I replied. Later, I became to think that he was disregarding hard effort & experience of Korean Online Game makers. I don't like the situation here in Korean gaming market that it's full of Online Games. But I can't stand that somebody neglecting whole part of Korean gaming production, because I think it's kinda another part of Korean culture & I don't like when Korean culture is disregarded just due to ignorant.

    That last part 'I already told you' thing is written, because that guy pointed me directly.
     
    #49 mrkwang, Feb 25, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2007
  10. Andy

    Original Member

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    I'm not attacking you... yet...

    I'm wondering if you already said everything on issue why not just shut up instead of repeating the same again and again? Do you believe this adds the value to your opinion if you repeat it twice?
     
  11. mrkwang

    mrkwang New Member

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    About that, I already wrote with last reply. Could you please read it carefully, instead of offending somebody else with nothing?

    And why not just be quiet by yourself, without adding anything in-topic? And do you know 'shup up' is very offending phrase? I used 'attack' word, due to 'shut up' phrase.
     
  12. sillytuna

    Indie Author

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    Easy guys, we're all on the same side here.

    Going back to the topic in question, it reminds me of some of the emails we get. Even as a tiny little developer, we've had emails such as this one:

    "We're two designers who have created a game better than GTA, and we've got funding. We're looking for a developer to put it into full production."

    Which translates to:

    "We're two students who think we know everything about design, and all that is wrong with the industry but actually don't. We spoke to an investment company who was very nice to us but was actually saying nothing more than "we invest in games".

    Tesla, I think you massively underestimate what goes into making a game, however small. You aren't the first and won't be the last.

    I equate your thinking to, "soccer is just kicking a ball around. With a bit of training I can Bend it lke Beckham". Doesn't work like that. Your quick dismissal of the difficulties of finding code/art makes that very obvious. If it was that easy, don't you think everyone would be doing it?

    Not trying to put you off, but start small, very small, and try and learn to code it yourself (Flash?).
     
  13. Pyabo

    Original Member

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    mrkwang, meet Andy...

    Try not to take him too seriously. (maybe we should add that to the forum FAQ)
     
  14. Andy

    Original Member

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    Come on Pyabo!
    He answered this thread 13 times. Repeating the same again and again.

    After he mentioned "I've already told you..." my question was reasonable enough. No? :)
    Anyway, please note that this was the question, I haven't required him to do that. ;)
    And i believe this already mentioned in the FAQs somehow - "don't be annoying with your personal opinion too much" at least this is how these forums work when they are in good shape.

    As for topic itself - I mostly agree with opinions of Mr. mrkwang. And particularly disagree with that Alex's idea that this is necessary for people working in game development business to learn coding. Peoples who know me closer should be able to figure out why. :D
     
  15. soniCron

    Indie Author

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    *koff*pot-calling-the-kettle...*koff* ;)
     
  16. indiemaker

    Original Member

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    Funny thread. :D

    sorry but 10K is only useful if you are going to be THE programmer. 10K can be used to invest in artwork, sound if the game is small enough. That's about it.

    But if you think 10K is enough to make ANY commercial quality game in which you need to hire the entire development team, forget it.

    This guy is seriously lacking in understanding just how arduous game development and production is.
     
  17. Roman Budzowski

    Indie Author

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    10k is more than needed to create commercial quality game. Though, you really need to be more of a visionaire and leader than just a programmer to get people to work almost for free in exchange for future revenue. Well, you won't hire team for 10k, but you definately can build your own team with that amout of money.

    best
    Roman
     
  18. S2P

    S2P New Member

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    If you need any help with your game we can help you. We have a good team of contractors working for us from all over the place. You have to start somewhere right? First thing is to section off your budget for each set of items required, even only if it's enough to get a concept/prototype of your game, or to complete a 1 level demo to encourage more investment/customer base, in order to plough more money into creating more levels.

    A few examples of the models/artwork that we can produce for you. We can even work on the basis by producing or co-producing your game, within budget, but taking a slice of the game profits. Send me a PM if you want to discuss further.
     

    Attached Files:

    #58 S2P, Feb 26, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2007
  19. sillytuna

    Indie Author

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    Andy, you don't need to learn code to work in the game industry, but if your budget is only $10k *and you have no experience* then being a programmer is the best way to get going.

    It isn't the only way, but it sure helps reduce your biggest cost.

    I think it's quite apparent from mrkwang's postings that experience is an issue here, so he should start small, perhaps by trying to code a prototype himself in Flash.
     
  20. Andy

    Original Member

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    Alex-Alex... ;)

    Why programmer? Why not an artist or game designer with awesome ideas? Why not a guy who has increadible marketing idea for delivering the indie games?..

    Hey you coders!!! :D Don't overestimate yourself! ;) <- For dumb ones: this is a joke!!!

    I believe most important thing in being able to survive as an indie is a passion. If you got a passion and able to deliver your passion to another persons around you don't need any money. At least not in the first turn.

    As for 10K - guys, what are we talking about? These are pretty well money for start. You are talking this like everyone of you had such money at start. I don't believe you...

    One custom flash game would cost you just 1.5K being developed at outsource. And I know the places where you can sell such game for 5K. So you just invent fun game idea and dress it into appropriate game design. That's all you need to get well start.

    PS Let I comment for sure that we are not talking about any specific person. But about the posibillity of such grow in general. OK?

    Edit: Lazy me not read at first all the posts above. I see Roman reproduced all these ideas ahead of me.
     

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