I Want To Invest In a Game Project, but I need Information

Discussion in 'Indie Basics' started by Tesla, Feb 23, 2007.

  1. Makaze

    Makaze New Member

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    For an individual with the skillset required to create a 3D realtime multiplayer game $10k is fairly easy to come by (as an investment, obviously not as throwaway). Simply by doing contract stuff after work your average indie could make that in a year no problem. I turned down that amount several times over in possible contract gigs last year to spend more time working on my game. But that's because I love making games and I'm an idiot.

    But hey I've said my piece. If you really think you can do it then have at it. I hope it works for you I really do, just be sure to come back here and let us know so I can buy my next game instead of sitting over a keyboard with a head full of vector3s. That way we can all get back to designing games, which seemed to be the whole point but I spend so little time actually doing...
     
  2. Tesla

    Tesla New Member

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    I have another question I want to ask. A lot of you have said it may be impossible for me to develop a game like Gunz or Kwonho with my budget. What about a scrolling shooter?

    What is the cheapest you could develop a game like Ikaruga for and make it an online game? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikaruga

    I have to. I know people love games, and I love them to. Online gaming is the future, and even Donald Trump said it. I want to create an online game, even if its a scrolling shooter or simple 3D or 2D fighting game.

    I may not have the technical knowledge of a lot of you guys, but I know what the people want, and most companies are not doing it, or if they do, they charge too much.

    I just went to a consumer gaming forum and listed idea I would like to see in Gunz. Almost everybody responded saying they would love to see it. My biggest problem is producing the product for an affordable price. Once that is done, I assure you I will have a game as popular as Gunz.

    I want to be like Henry Ford. Do you think he had the technical knowledge to make cars? No, he didn't. But he had the idea, and he knew how to put together a team of engineers who did. That is why he is just as smart as every engineer who worked for him. I want to be the same way.

    Guys, I know I can produce a successful game. The indie gaming market is hot right now. The mainstream game market is struggling, because video game corporations these days are not innovative

    You know why? Because they charge too much up front. Most of us can't afford to produce a game for the Playstation 3, even if we have better ideas than the execs at Sony.

    Dude, with my idea, I could have made the Dreamcast a success. I'm not trying to brag, but the people I talk to told me if I were CEO of Sega when the DC was released, we could have battled Sony and Xbox. I can sit here and list all the mistakes the company made. They are so basic.
     
    #22 Tesla, Feb 23, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2007
  3. mrkwang

    mrkwang New Member

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    Proper answer was already above there, like this.

    You don't have to explain, how you could SAVE your money to hire some people in the other country, how you could purchase some sound effects, how you could get license from 3D artist, ... etc in this thread.

    If you can make it, just make it & release. If it's good, we & gamer will be happy. That's all.
     
  4. mrkwang

    mrkwang New Member

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    ... Sorry. But didn't we recognize about that? I assume almost every forum members knows about that already.
     
  5. papillon

    Indie Author

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    A lot is possible for a very small budget if you have both passion and knowledge.

    If you find an absolutely great programmer in $cheap_country, well, that's a start, but if they're not passionate about your project, those great skills may be hired away by someone else who has more to offer. Just enough money to stay afloat while getting a game going works fine if the game is your dream, but works less well if the game is a job you're doing for someone else.

    Often you find people who are passionate but don't have a lot of knowledge. This will be a big problem with any multiplayer game, because they're much more prone to holes, and holes are a bigger deal. A single-player game, it doesn't MATTER to anyone if the player finds an exploit that gives them a million gold pieces. They've already bought it and they're having fun, who cares if they cheat? You need to be sure you have enough skills on board to fix all the problems that will come up, and to get it finished in a reasonable amount of time.

    Very little is impossible, but if right now all you have is the idea and not a team, don't underestimate just how long it can take you to assemble a GOOD team and be sure you can trust them.


    Crappy generic 3d art is a great way to turn off your potential fanbase and make them think of your game as not worth paying for. STYLE will stick in people's heads and be an enormous help to your advertising. A lot of online community games keep themselves going from people buying little add-ons to their characters - because those add-ons are CUTE or COOL. Basic and generic will not get the interest.
     
  6. Jesse Aldridge

    Original Member

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    I would frantically try to put something together myself and use the 10 grand to support myself.

    $10,000 / $20 an hour = 500 hours / 40 hours a week = 12 weeks = 3 months = not enough money to hire a competent programmer, unless you simplified the design into something that could be done in less than 3 months. That's not counting art, etc of course. You could hire sub-par talent maybe, but imho underpaid people are more of a liability than an asset.
     
  7. Tesla

    Tesla New Member

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    Instead of responding to something you consider to be obvious, why don't you offer advice like the other members? I asked how much do you estimate a scrolling shooter like Ikaruga would cost? Could it be done for 10 grand, less?

    Come on mrkwang, try contributing to the discussion rather than making sarcastic comments that sounds annoying. It is people like you who turn down people who are not determined, but those tactics never worked on me. I keep trying until I can't try any more.

    There is a market place section at www.renderosity.com that has 3D models for sale. Some are very high in quality. It just depends on what you buy. Trust me, I want the art to be a good as possible, but programming/animation concerns me a lot.

    Ok, maybe 10 grand won't work for Gunz or Kwonho( I still think it is possible) but what about a side scrolling shooter? I would think a side scrolling shooter could be done for much less than $10 grand.

    The animation and programming would be simple, and graphics would be simple as well. I'm starting to think an online scrolling shooter would be better, it could be produced faster, and I have a couple of innovative ideas that could make it radically different from most shooters. However, I won't list it here, since it is an idea that could be taken.
     
    #27 Tesla, Feb 23, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2007
  8. KNau

    Original Member

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    So here we go again with an "ideas guy" who has brilliant game ideas that no one has ever thought of before and he's totally a business genious and Tony Robbins and Napolean Hill say it's all possible and therefore this is gonna rock! I'm surprised no one has thrown out the go-to URL for this type of scenario. Here ya go...
    http://www.gamedev.net/

    The real answer is to start small. Figure out what a manageable jumping on point is (here's a hint: it's not a real-time 3D MMO action game) and get it done with quality and makes money. An empire doesn't spring forth overnight - you have to build it brick by brick (or have lots of expendible slave labour).

    There's two ways you can proceed:

    !) You can have your vision of the ultimate online game and lose all your money while bashing your head against a wall trying to make it happen. Success is a total crap-shoot.

    2) You can keep that ultimate vision in mind but start as small as possible and let your actions progress towards that vision in a naturally evolving way, building an audience and maintaining a profit as you go. Eventually, you will get there.

    EDIT

    Absolutely, a side scrolling shooter is do-able!
     
  9. mrkwang

    mrkwang New Member

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    I already told you WHAT KIND OF THINGS YOU MUST TAKE CARE FOR MAKING ONLINE GAMES. Did you read it? I didn't see any reply by yourself about that. If not, go above to read it. Anyway make it short here.

    - Operation is very important.
    - For Online Gaming, Making is NOT the end. In fact, it's just the Start.
    - Online Game must do UPDATE frequently, or very frequently.
    - Some or even Many people must be hired, to do GM.
    - Real important thing is SERVER MANAGEMENT.
    - Advertisement is very important, and your example [Gunz] & [Kwonho] paid tons of money to get their position.

    Well. Even if somebody answers your question, will it really help? You will say again "Hire some people from other country, Purchase some object from 3D artist, ... I can make it more chepaer, and I will not give up, ... etc".

    Not sarcarism at all. I & other members already told you what we know, and you are just telling us "I can make it, even if you say so."
     
  10. Tesla

    Tesla New Member

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    I appreciate your insightful post. It is one of the best and most realistic posts I've read since I started this thread. Yes, I'am an "idea" guy. But sometimes I want to do things that are too complicated rather than starting small, which is a weakness.

    Since side scrollers are a tried and true genre, I will turn my attention there now, and reserve the MMOs for the future. I will also go check out that game dev site you listed. Producing a game like Ikaruga, which became a blockbuster hit that even made it onto the Game Cube, is something I will now focus on.

    I also want to say I agree with you guys. So many witnesses have come in and said producing a game on the level of Gunz will be unlikely with my budget, so I will take the advice of the majority.
     
    #30 Tesla, Feb 23, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2007
  11. soniCron

    Indie Author

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    Why don't you ask Nexic how realistic your assessment is? (Seriously. Ask him. He's a member of these forums.)
     
  12. sayer

    Original Member

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    You can also do this:

    Invest this 10,000 $ in making decent playable demo of the potential game. 2 characters, one level all amazing and working. It must be evident that you have team, that is capable of doing good stuff.

    Then show this to publishers (the same they publish this games you talked about) and if you have great demo, then they will give you money to finish the whole game.

    Best,

    Sayer
     
  13. Pyabo

    Original Member

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    It's pretty silly to post a message specifically asking for advice and then dismiss that advice out of hand. If you aren't approaching this with an open mind, why post to begin with?
     
  14. TimS

    Original Member

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    There is more to it than this...

    $700 for art, design, sound, and advertising total -- on a 3D online real-time 3rd person shooter. This nearly breaks my mind to read... and it shows that there is a fundamental divide here. You really don't know anything about making games, which while it may seem like an insult, is just an assessment. THIS IS FIXABLE, but you're going to have to do your homework.

    So your game ideas could have saved Sega. NOW we're getting into a different set of issues... primarily delusions of grandeur, a.k.a. Megalomania. I'm a bit of a sufferer myself, though I keep my dreams of being a space pirate mostly to myself. If the people you talk to have told you this, you may be talking to the wrong people. Unrealistic expectations coupled with little specific knowhow in the field of game development should not be encouraged by friends, especially if your goal is to free yourself from wage slave status. To have the role you desire in the field that you're interested in is going to require a LOT of learning. You will need to know about every job within the industry (artists, designers, programmers, marketers, business developers, sound engineers, etc.) at least to the degree that your team can trust your decision-making.

    The key to successful entrepreneurship has a lot to do with this can-do attitude, but you cannot build a game on spirit alone. You need to have good ideas and a fantastic grasp of every aspect of how to go about realizing them. All of those classic famous entrepreneurs had the latter part of this duo well covered. If your aim is to be one of them, hit the books!

    By the way, you could probably swing a sidescrolling shooter by using Torque Game Builder as the codebase (or something similar) and contracting out the art and sound (and even code if you really are ONLY an idea guy)... but expect trouble on the road ahead if you launch into said project without first learning a bit about what goes into the production of a game.

    I agree with SonicRon... ask Nexic about shooters. He's done a few as an indie -- he'll shoot ye straight.

    Hope this wasn't too long and boring.

    -Tim
     
  15. andrew

    andrew New Member

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    some advice:

    - hire a good programmer, preferably someone who has completed/shipped a title before. don't hire students, or it will be buggy and unfinished.

    - if you want it to be online-capable, your programmer better be familiar with networking, client-server and peer-to-peer models, TCP vs UDP, lobbies, etc etc

    - give the programmer a solid design doc, otherwise constant revisions will eat up all your budget

    - if you are trying to do a visually lush scroller like Ikaruga, you will have heavy art expenses, budget appropriately

    - if you are planning on pitching to a publisher, concentrate on getting a small part of the game highly polished. your investment will live and die on the quality of that playable demo.
     
  16. Gary the Llama

    Original Member

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    Why not learn a bit of programming yourself? It can't hurt and maybe you'd really enjoy it and/or be really good at it. And then you can start doing some of that work yourself. At the very least, it will give you a more realistic view on things.

    Look at Cliff Bleszinski at Epic. Sure, he's an idea man nowadays but he started by making a "simple" 2D game: Jazz Jackrabbit. So why not learn a programming language and try it out yourself? It can't hurt and you can pretty much find all the resources you need online for free. (Visual C# Express Edition, XNA, tutorials, etc.)

    Hope this helps and good luck.

    Edit: I was wrong, Jazz Jackrabbit was not Cliffy's first game but whatever. The point still stands, he started small and look where he is now? Freakin' Gears of War. :)
     
  17. Maupin

    Original Member

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    I'll give the same advice to you, a beginning producer, that I would to a beginning programmer: start small. A lot goes into making a game that might not be immediately obvious, and even experienced developers run into unexpected time and money-wasting difficulties. But by completing a small game you'll get experience that will allow you to move onto bigger and better games.

    Since you're an ideas guy, the best thing you could do is come up with a high-concept small game. A new twist on a card/tetris/match3 game, or a completely new casual game idea. Produce your first game and you'll have a much better idea of how much some of your more ambitious game ideas will cost.

    What Tim said, in italics, cannot be understated.
     
  18. Chris Evans

    Moderator Original Member

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    $10,000 with your current skill-set isn't enough.

    Now if you could contribute a large portion of the programming or art, you might be able to pull off a smaller version of your game with $20,000 - $30,000 and with you "donating" your time. Though it could take several years and your "donated" time could end up being $80,000 - 120,000 for your living expenses.

    But anything is possible. I don't know the exact budget, but Josh Ritter created Minions of Mirth, a MMORPG, on a shoestring budget. Here's how he did it (taken from Coyote's blog):

    He pulled it off but that's also because he had a lot of drive, determination, and brought a lot of valuable skill-sets to the table. He wasn't just an idea guy. He was also a planner and executer. He also knew the limits that he had to work within.

    I see you with basically two viable options:
    1). Raise 10-30x the money you have and try to make a miniature version of your game. If you get this far, it will be easier to raise more money. But this is risky since you would be a newbie producer.
    2). Spend the next couple of years learning to program and use RAD tools. Produce some small projects. As KNau said, start small and slowly and gradually build to where you want to be.

    I'm doing an online game myself and they're no joke. But they're not impossible either if you approach it the right way and don't bite off more than you can chew.
     
  19. mrkwang

    mrkwang New Member

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    Your words are basically right, but he will never listen, because he just want to hire some people abroad & use only 10,000$ budget, doesn't want to raise more money nor making it by himself.
     
  20. luggage

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    To the original poster - what you're looking for will be quite tough, the shoot em up, if you keep it simple and reuse content cleverly, could be a way. At least you're willing to put money into the project, a lot of people won't so this will give you at least a chance of getting a couple of people together.

    The more you can do yourself though, the further your budget will go. If you're technically minded you should give something like Blitz a try, you'd be surprised how quickly you can put together a little shoot em up if you keep it modest to begin with. Good luck with whatever you decide!
     

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