Gamemaker or Java?

Discussion in 'Indie Basics' started by Mashew, Aug 25, 2007.

  1. bvanevery

    bvanevery New Member

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    Why don't you go tell the BioShock guys that they should have written their code in Java or C# and see what they say?

    Just because you can't doesn't mean other indies can't.

    But I have written 3d drivers for money, and I've written a few of my own 3d engines. I'm capable of looking up Java benchmarks and discussing them.

    Credibility, where I come from, means showing your benchmarks and not making performance claims you can't back up. I haven't seen didly doo from you proving that Java can run as fast as C++ for performance intensive applications. I've only heard excuses from you why a 50% drop in performance really shouldn't matter, because you're supposed to be an impoverished indie who can't afford to do any better.
     
  2. electronicStar

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    Bioshock using unreal engine 3 I'm ready to bet that a good portion of the game code uses unrealscript which guarantees perfromances even worse than java...
     
  3. mot

    mot
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    http://bytonic.de/html/benchmarks.html

    Found these yet? First vs. last column of the first row, read it aloud please.
     
  4. bvanevery

    bvanevery New Member

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    The performance critical sections of any commercial 3d engine are not in anybody's slow scripting language, they're in C++ or ASM.
     
  5. electronicStar

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    All I can say is that for UT2004, everything that wasn't directly related to low level rendering or networking was using Uscript, that include all the projectile classes using 'tick' functions on every frame.
    Don't know about the last generation of games but I don't see why it should be different.
    As for the rendering core, it was in C++ but I think it would be doable in java, you'd certainly lose a couple of FPSes but still doable.
    I actually playe d a couple of 3D demos using java , there was a prototype mmorpg called "wurm" or something like that.
     
  6. bvanevery

    bvanevery New Member

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    But if you were Epic, and you sacrificed "a few" FPS so that you could do your multi $100K 3D engine core in Java, you'd lose customers because you weren't as fast as your competitors' engines who stuck with C++. The competition between 3d engine providers and 3d device driver writers is fierce, every frame counts in those arenas. The competition in 3d modeling / animation land used to be fierce, but with Autodesk owning both Maya and 3DSMAX now, I'm not sure anymore.

    I started another thread on the Java performance topic BTW. At some point I'm not going to check this one any more.

    I'm still looking at the Jake2 benchmarks. I get ~55 FPS on my 866 MHz Pentium III with a GeForce4 Ti on Windows 2000. The Bytonic benchmarks used an inferior GeForce4 MX card. I'm trying to get a modern C version of the Quake II engine running. I don't think it's fair for the Java guys to bang on ID's code for 2 years in order to get to Jake2-0.9.5, and then only compare it to ID's original code drop. What did the C guys accomplish in that same time?

    Unfortunately, so far the installations for all these modern Quake II ports are shit. Well, I'm not surprised. This is how I became a CMake guru.
     
    #66 bvanevery, Sep 5, 2007
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2007
  7. Bad Sector

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    Wow, you are really not doing anything else in these boards than bashing people (including those who are not even here)...
     
  8. bvanevery

    bvanevery New Member

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    My post that preceded yours didn't bash anybody. I don't know why you're guilty of selective observation, but that's what you're doing. EDIT: well yeah I did say some of these Quake port installations are shit. They are. They don't work. That's what I mean by shit. If something plain out doesn't work I have a hard time seeing it as a "bash" to say so, though. Maybe I have an abusive personality for being willing to call a spade a spade. EDIT: I'm really tired, it's 3 am and it's this shit which has kept me up this late. So yeah, some of these Quake port installations are shit. BASH BASH BASH. I'm a Basher. I don't like bad installs or builds and don't have respect for them.
     
    #68 bvanevery, Sep 5, 2007
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2007
  9. Bad Sector

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    Maybe your computer is broken? I never had problems installing Quake ports or even the official Quake 2 demo... in fact i did so a few days ago.
     
  10. bvanevery

    bvanevery New Member

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    Well I've got Windows 2000, Windows XP, and Kubuntu 7.04 on 1 box, Windows XP on another, and Windows Vista on a 3rd. The XP-only box is the one that failed. I'll try the other XP but right now it's occupied with Kubuntu Java nonsense. Seems I didn't hit the right keys for the JRE license and now it has aborted the installation, bah! Quake2 packages for Linux didn't run. Typical. (BASH!) Figured I'd see if Jake2 would run.
     
  11. bvanevery

    bvanevery New Member

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    Ok, Q2 demo worked on Vista, surprise surprise. I finally figured out how to turn off vsync. I have a 2GHz Intel Centrino Duo, GeForce 8600M GT with crappy drivers. My JRE is 1.6 OEM Sun Microsystems.

    In windowed mode:
    640x480: Q2-3.16 gets 225 FPS, Jake2-0.9.5 gets 100 FPS.
    1280x960 : Q2-3.16 gets 165 FPS, Jake2-0.9.5 gets 100 FPS.

    I can't duplicate the claims of the Bytonic benchmark. The performance difference is in line with other C/C++ vs. Java benchmarks I've seen. I am not inclined to believe their claims without corroboration from other sources.
     
    #71 bvanevery, Sep 5, 2007
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2007

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