Gamemaker or Java?

Discussion in 'Indie Basics' started by Mashew, Aug 25, 2007.

  1. oldschool

    Original Member

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    Okay let me take a crack at this one more time.

    Was the original post about your informed or uninformed opinion?


    Here are some great games from a gamemaker named jph_iterationGAMES

    I went to school for microbiology and took 1 class in VB 6.0.

    So.....

    I suck at programming and I'm no artist so its not gamemakers fault that I code badly and make crappy art now is it? I could just as easily make a bad java game, but it would be harder, to code that is. Infact, I remember a review on Gametunnel a few years ago about a paddle game made in one of those real languages that just blew.

    Lets face it you programmers make more money than I did working at a pharmaceutical company, and they paid well :)

    Keep in mind how many kids are making gamemaker games vs adults with money and coding kungfu super mojo.
     
  2. cichlasoma

    cichlasoma New Member

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  3. oNyx

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    GM and MMF are pretty restrictive, but you can of course create pretty nice games with it. If your game design fits nicely into their paradigm, you'll use your time very efficiently.

    Java is very different in scope and there is a lot more to learn. It does, however, reward you with more flexibility. You can for example use it for non-game stuff as well.

    I also suggest that you take a look at Blitz, since it offers a nice compromise. If the ability to make web games is also important to you, also take a look at Flash.
     
  4. Infinite Element

    Infinite Element New Member

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    I use GM. My game is actually very good, and it is an arcade game, so it doesn't need top-notch graphics. But just because some users (most) make crap graphics / gameplay doesn't mean the engine is crap. Get it right, try to use it.
     
  5. datxcod

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    I'm not sure, but I think Cactus Bruce and the Corporate Monkeys was made using multimedia fusion or gamemaker ? if so I don't see what's the prob with people saying that gamemaker and multimedia fusion are crap, it all depends on the developer. It happens with flash, you can see thousands of crappy games on the net, yet that doesn't mean it's a crappy tool.
     
  6. Backov

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    In fact I'd say just the opposite - the better the tool, the more likely you are to see lots and lots of crappy games. It's the fact that the tool is so good that almost anyone can make someone with it.

    That doesn't mean it's ideal for all things, but as tools and development platforms get better and better, there's going to be more and more crap games. That doesn't mean you should judge the platform by anything but the cream of the crop.
     
  7. Sybixsus

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    I'm pretty sure it was made with MMF, but I could be wrong.

    Most accessible != Best. Of course one aspect of quality is accessibility, but I don't think that being accessible to everyone tells you anything about any of the other, more important aspects of quality. Overall, I don't think high accessibility is associated with better products any more ( or indeed any less ) than low accessibility. Some are, some aren't.

    Of course not, but Desktop Gaming ( who many of the recent comments appear to be aimed at ) appears to have made his judgement based on the gallery on the tool's home site. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that a sensible developer is going to use those "cream of the crop" games to fill up his gallery. If the GameMaker devs have not used the best games to highlight in their gallery, they only have themselves to blame for creating a bad first impression.

    It may not be a fair impression, but it's a first impression that a lot of people are going to take and - let's be honest - when anyone posts on here for feedback, the first comments are usually things about making a good/bad impression like screenshots which show the title screens instead of the game, bad spelling, bad grammar, ugly jpeg artifacts on logos, etc. So we evidently all know that a bad first impression goes a long way.
     
  8. Bad Sector

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    That Yoyo page site is more of a social network for GM-made sites (like YouTube for GameMaker) than a gallery. Everyone is free to put his and her games there and the game is listed immediately. It has nothing to do with the developers and is not a site to showcase what GameMaker can do.

    However, having said that, the Yoyo staff selects some good games and puts them, in the front page as featured games (note that the 'top 10' is made by the users, who -from what i've seen- don't really care much about looks, but more about gameplay - a good example is Maziac which looks very good but has low rating because from a gameplay point of view sucks :p).
     
  9. datxcod

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    Forgot to add that two of the most cool little games created with gamemaker that I played are seiklus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seiklus) and knytt (http://nifflas.ni2.se/). And people loved those games, they are so atmospheric, the world is huge and the sounds are excellent.

    Here's a section from the wiki article on the impact of Seiklus:

    "Since its release, Seiklus has had a broad and growing influence on certain circles of indie game development (cited as inspiration by Nifflas, the creator of Within a Deep Forest). In its visibility, Seiklus has gone some way to help legitimize software produced with canned game creation utilities, illustrating the benefits of design over rote technology.[1] Its influence has spread to the point where, even in mainstream industry publications, the game has become something of a point of reference: a name drop[2], to get across various points about game design[3]. It has also featured in some direct capacity in publications as diverse as Edge and The Gamer's Quarter (including cover status, and extensive interviews with its creator)."
     
  10. Pallav Nawani

    Indie Author

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    For those who have experience in using Game Maker: How suitable is it for making an RPG like aveyond? Can it do fullscreen resolutions higher than 800x600? Is is possible to do hardware based sprite rotation or scaling etc?
    What about triggers and that kind of stuff you have to do a lot when making quests etc?

    I have looked at RpgMaker XP, and while it is seems very suitable, I don't like the fact that it can do 640x480 resolution at max, and uses windows GDI to do all the drawing.

    I am basically looking for something that is easy to use & does not have the above limitations.
     
  11. Batley

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    Official news from the latest Click convention, held yesterday, is that MMF is getting a java runtime as well as hardware acceleration. :)
     
  12. Bad Sector

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    I thought that Knytt was made with MMF, just like Knytt Stories.

    But i may be wrong.
     
  13. ChrisP

    Indie Author

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    This interview with the developer, Nifflas, gives me the impression that you're correct. It's not explicitly stated, but he does say:

    And Knytt Stories certainly was.
     
  14. papillon

    Indie Author

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    It *can* do almost anything in 2d, some better than others. If you understand how an RPG works in great detail and generally know how to program you shouldn't have trouble building such a thing. Of course, the super simple drag-and-drop options won't be of any use to you, you'll have to learn the scripting language and write in that (Many people NEVER use the D&D stuff, they're training wheels to help people with no code experience. If you've had any programming experience whatsoever, skip it and learn GML.).

    And it will take a lot longer than RPG Maker, since RPG Maker is designed exactly for that purpose and this isn't. There are dozens of user-made RPG examples/frameworks to look at though (given earlier comments about the userbase, you shouldn't be surprised that some of these examples aren't much good)

    Larger fullscreens is not a problem - I personally stick with 800x600 but you can go much bigger. Sprite rotation/scaling/alpha/blending is all DirectX/3d based. Triggers? Well, you're going to be writing all your own scripts, put whatever variables and reactions you want! I'm not sure I understand that question. :)
     
  15. Backov

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    I will stand by my statement. The more stuff you see, the better the tool - because that's the point of the tool, to make it easier. As I qualified, it's not ideal for everything, or even a lot of things - for instance I'm sure Game Maker has games that it's good at it and games that it's not good at, and if your game fits in the first category, you're golden.

    But as tools improve, this rule will be more and more true. Flash is the perfect example. It's a great tool that's easy to produce crap with, because it's easy to produce with.

    A tool is by definition not good unless it's easy to use. Otherwise why did you make a tool in the first place? A tool is a way to simplify a task.
     
  16. Backov

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    Ya know it's funny when I was looking for a good project a while back I thought of doing an RPG Maker but with more modern technology, and then I realized who RPG Makers audience is: A legion of 12-15 year old pirates. :)
     
  17. datxcod

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    Gamemaker,multimedia fusion whatever. They are both good tools to make games, my point still stands.
     
  18. lennard

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    The kids just bought gamemaker and are having a blast - watching them drag and drop games together is making me jealous.
     
  19. Crimson Knight

    Crimson Knight New Member

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    Game Maker is easier to use, which makes it more accessable. The end result, is a lot of games that blow chunks(I remember someone taking an example game, adding like 3 new enemies into it and calls it a new game lol). But you have that kind of showcase in any non-hardcore-programming tool suite - RPG Maker, Game Maker, that hamster related game engine with the weird abbreviation that I can't remember, RPG toolkit... If you don't need to know lower level languages like C++, then you should expect that kind of stuff appearing for the suite, it's inevitable. Doesn't mean the tool suite is crap, that blame falls more to the community for not developing good enough games. Though when you think about it, most people aren't very serious about making decent games.

    With that said, Game Maker can do ANY 2D game, very easily.

    For an RPG, Game Maker is suitable, but it requires more problem solving and code knowledge than say, RPG Maker. With the former, you have a lot of work cut out for you - creating a menu system, battle system, custom save/load system, and if you don't know GML, you're SOL as drag and drop can be used to make so much of the game... With the latter, you could just edit existing components in a lot of cases, although in regards to both, you can just use pre-made resources to ease the development process.

    The resolution limitation for XP bugged me, but Game Maker shouldn't give you troubles, as I've used it on many resolutions with no problems.

    I believe DirectX does the drawing(could be wrong), but you can do advanced functions with sprites such as rotation, scaling, alpha blending etc. These features are only available in the registered version though.

    Triggers like in the RPG Maker games, are derived from variables/arrays, so you'll have to use those. If you have experience managing variables in the RPG Maker games such as RPG Maker 2 for PS2 or XP, you should be fine.

    LOL

    They almost killed any hope of RPG Tsukuru for us here in the US, it took someone who WASN'T a pirate that had connections to actually beg for it, I dislike that community. RPG Maker, especially XP is too rigid for its own good though outside RPGs, even with RGSS.
     
  20. bvanevery

    bvanevery New Member

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    Happy to have learned that some people actually got commercially salable work done with GameMaker. Now for my usual $0.02 regarding the "what tool should I use?" newbie question.

    Some skills, people will pay you money for. Other skills, people won't. I seriously doubt that anyone's willing to pay you for knowing how to program in GameMaker, although I'd happily welcome any corrections to the contrary. I bet that programming market is tiny if it exists at all though. Whereas the Java programming market is huge. If you learn Java, you can get paid to program in Java.

    The problem with making your own game is you have to stay afloat somehow while you're making it. If you've already solved that problem, if you've already got a lot of cash in the bank for whatever reason, then great. Use whatever tool you like, and worry only about what will help you make a game more quickly. But if you actually need money to stay afloat, don't waste your time learning tools and skills that have no commercial value in and of themselves. You're going to need to put food on the table, and when you're desperately searching the want ads for when the next meal is going to come from, you'll be happy you're a Java expert rather than a GameMaker expert.

    Put another way, making games is an exceedingly risky and likely unprofitable activity. It can be a long time before you see any money for it at all, if ever. Whereas knowing various programming skills that are in high demand is a defense against that problem. If you get into trouble, or you just need a refresh on your war chest, you can always fall back on your commercially valuable skills.
     

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