Five golden rules (for newbie indies)

Discussion in 'Indie Basics' started by Jack Norton, Jul 28, 2010.

  1. Jack Norton

    Indie Author

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    Haha and that's hardly an answer.
    A home=single room flat or giant villa with pool?
    kids through school=normal public school or exclusive private one
    annual vacation=1 week in the camping or 1 month at the maldives?

    I can go on but I guess you get the idea. Much better to say "I want 15k/month".
     
  2. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Not really, my 15K a month is "keep the lights on" break-even. I would consider 25K+ a month to be successful, which is what we make doing WFH on a good contract.

    I don't consider people making below a coupla thousand dollars a month to be even independent. For those that argue against that, then the ultimate extension of the argument is to be a street bum.

    Been here before. Flame on!
     
  3. Indinera

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    Big news.
    That makes Cliffsky (most quoted person on this forum whenever stats are discussed) in fact unsuccessful. XD
     
  4. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Home= somewhere you feel is adequate to what you want. Similar to what a proper job with your skillset might secure. Public school works for me, though private school would be better. For me its a couple of weeks in the med.

    Like I said, "no excuses". If you want to push all the definitions to be achievable whilst earning sod all, then be my guest. For myself I consider a successful indie career to bring in at least the same money as you could doing it as a permie job. Or to be at least in the same parish.
     
  5. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Only if you want to argue the toss. For starters he needs a third what "I" do on account of having a third the staff to pay.
     
  6. Indinera

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    .

    That's $1400-2000 in France.
     
  7. Nexic

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    Who told you that?

    Yeh but you have 3x the manpower so you should be taking on 3x the work and making 3x the money, so that's not really relevant.

    If they make a low income and because of that need help from others/the state then I agree, but some people make less and don't need help from other sources due to a low cost/standard of living. They are still independent.
     
  8. papillon

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    There are permanent jobs in the UK earning a hell of a lot less than a "few thousand" a month.

    Maybe not rocket science, but there's really no such thing as a 'normal life' and 'normal costs'.

    FAMILY means different things to different people. Not everyone has kids. Vacations have VASTLY different costs (especially if you don't have kids). And some people don't like vacations in the first place. Not everyone has or wants a car.

    (Of course, I look confused at the idea of healthcare as a cost in the UK. I'm sure some people here pay for extra insurance and think it's essential and part of everyday life - whereas I've posted gleefully about getting much better treatment on the NHS than I ever did paying vast sums in the US.)

    Some people eat every meal from a restaurant or takeaway, some people rely on supermarket ready-meals, some people buy vegetables, some people grow vegetables...

    Well, just the same, the ultimate extension of your argument is that you're not truly indie unless you're wealthy enough to own your own country! :)
     
  9. Indinera

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    I recall a recent year of $180k (mentionned here) and 25k a month is $375k - that is just simple maths applying Applewood's comments ^^
     
  10. Jack Norton

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    Well fine, that's what you want!

    For me, not having to go EVERY DAY in a oppressive grey office by driving 2h in traffic, talk to boring people and eat shit food that will get you all sort of diseases, is already a good reason to stay indie even if I don't make 15k/month :)

    Different perspectives really... not saying that mine is better, just better for ME. Once you have enough to live, more money don't gives you freedom, peace of mind or health.
     
  11. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    I'll grant you that, but this also harks to my "street bum" comment - they're totally independent.

    I think to have this discussion we need to put some ground rules in place. I'm know to have a stricter definition of "indie" than most, but I think we should be able to agree that a proper salary means you can lead the life you want to lead, without having to bend it to fit your circumstances.

    If you you give up all the trappings of a big salary to live on a pittance, that's great and I have no problem with those who do that, but it's not "going independent" it's "paring down to live on no money" which is not the same thing in my book.
     
  12. Indinera

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    In our countries 2k a month is just fine. Not huge, but fine.
     
  13. Indinera

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    How about being independant is being able to reach the minimal salary of your country?
    A job is a job, not everybody having a "normal" job can live the life they want exactly either.
     
  14. lightassassin

    lightassassin New Member

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    Sounds like everybody has different levels of being successful.

    Personally matching my current pay level (which is small) would be successful to me. Although long term assuming I take the route of children, buying a home (currently renting) and setting up long term investments (pension, private health care) I would have to increase my income.

    So as far as I can tell, everybody has a different level of succession. My current level is rather low (only a few grand a month) while it appears Applewoods level is high (25k for him and his team).

    It's all aimed at being game developers, indie or whatever, which is the common goal, but each have their own business goals. Trying to define what is successful is like trying to define indie =)
     
  15. Applewood

    Moderator Original Member Indie Author

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    Absolutely, but I bet you wouldn't be running to get one of them if there was any other choice.

    And the breadwinner should be expected to provide for whatever is required. You're mentioning all this to highlight that someone without these common requirements can do okay, and I agree - they can. But what I meant with my "no excuses" comment is that you should be able to chose to do these things if you want to. You certainly can with a permie job in the same field.

    You're losing me. Street Bums eat out of the waste bins at Safeway.


    Don't know how you got there. My ultimate extension would be that all things being equal you can live the life you'd get doing the same job without the "independent" part.

    After all, the moment you pin on the badge that says "independent", the fair next question is "Really, from what?"

    A bad answer would be "Lifestyle choices".
     
    #75 Applewood, Aug 2, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2010
  16. Applewood

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    For your very relevant second point, I'd say your first point is invalid. I think a litmus test for successful indie status would be that you reach the minimum wages for your talents in your chosen field. In our case that would be game development, which is by no means a "shit" job in anyones country.
     
  17. papillon

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    Back when I was still applying for fulltime jobs in England, the payrate for them was under 11K. And if a job at that payrate had not completely sucked and had actually hired me I probably would have been content, because I couldn't expect anything more.

    Was an example of vastly different cost of living with the person in question not necessarily feeling that they were tailoring their expectations. Many people who buy ingredients and cook from scratch are appalled at the idea of living off ready-meals; giving them the extra money wouldn't necessarily change their lifestyle.

    *shrug* I just get weirded out when people talk about what they think is "normal". I have enough trouble recognising my own class privilege at times, I rather annoyed someone at a social gathering when I referred to "the guy who did our lawns" when I was young. His impression of people who paid others to mow their lawns was... not very positive. But this was normal to me! :)

    There are probably people above your payrate who think of certain things as normal and obligatory that would baffle you as well. Probably.
     
  18. Indinera

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    In my country salaries in the videogames industry are not that high.
    I think it's a particularity of the USA to have very high salaries in the industry, and even though, I recall something like $75k (yearly) as an average salary.
    It's probably closer to $40k or even $30k (yearly, not monthly lol) in most of the european countries.
     
  19. Greg Squire

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    CasualInsider, could you clarify this statement. What's magic about having your game price end in a seven? BigFish and many others use a $6.99 price point. Are you saying that pricing things at $6.97 gives you an edge over them? I know that in the past retail stores used to use the last digit to denote a sale price or clearance price, but I don't see how that would apply here.
     
  20. Nexic

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    Sorry got confused, thought you were talking about the "at least $2k per month" statement not the "25k per month" one.
     

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